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Thursday, July 23, 2026

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12:35:03dreamrealhttps://bytecode.news/posts/2026/07/bjarnason-the-labour-arbitrage-theory-of-dev-tool-popularity
12:35:06dreamrealjreicher: ^^
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14:10:21nb-bendreamreal: yeah, people keep their broken ways because learning is slow. But after you learn you can do it both well and fast. Nothing delays projects more than a broken design
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14:11:24nb-benanyway I don't know that people manually code anymore, feels like I'm the only one
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14:35:41dreamrealNah, you're not the only one
14:37:30dreamrealit's still worth it, but the problem is that someone who *can* work with the tools well is gonna fly past you, a lot like how someone who knew C well was going to deliver enough value *easily* to make them worthwhile compared against someone hand-tuning ASM code. The ASM code was "better," but... the C guy is like "I wrote a method to do Thing() this morning, barely worth mentioning the 15 minutes of
14:37:30dreamrealeffort" while the ASM guy's going "just you wait, in two weeks I'll have saved you 22us!"
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15:03:46deeboi moved a big service from jaxrs to spring mvc with $250 of sonnet and a day or two, would've taken me at least a week just typing shit
15:04:19deebobut damn if it didn't make a lot of annoying mistakes like unnecessary annotations etc, still had to read through all of it
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15:12:23dreamrealYou'd have had to read through regardless, although I've found I usually give pretty precise and limited instructions that handle a lot of that- and almost ALL of my instructions screech about red/green testing hard enough that we write specs to conform with that keep everything in line. I also use green/green - which is what a porting exercise would want - but that's rare.
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16:41:15whaleyhttps://openjdk.org/jeps/540 JSON API just hit incubation
16:41:15javabotwhaley's title: "JEP 540: Simple JSON API (Incubator)"
16:41:15nevetJEP 540: Simple JSON API (Incubator)
16:41:22whaley~jackson
16:41:22javabotJackson is a library that provides a streaming parser for many, many common dataformats (including ~XML, ~JSON, ~YAML, ~CSV, and others) and can map those formats into and from Java Objects as well. See https://github.com/FasterXML/jackson - it's probably the most common such library in use in Java today.
16:41:27* whaley humps jackson
16:45:20ParaLooking at the lack of anything useful in the proposed API I wouldn't be that quick.
16:45:32ParatryGet(), no has()
16:45:53ParaStandard object problem "is the key 'foo' missing or does it just have a null value" will be ugleh.
16:53:57nimajePara: I think that's the reason why there is JsonNull
16:54:32Paraso what does getting JsonNull mean for obj.get("key")
16:54:44ParaIs that {"key": null} or {]
16:54:53whaleyI think what's being referenced here is how Jackson does it by returning a MissingNode when parentNode.get("foo") is called where "foo" isn't a key.
16:54:56Para{}
16:55:47whaleyjackson-databind has such a nice fluent API that has effectively no extra noise. I can't tell if JEP 540 has that entirely... though it does look more fluent than most other impls
16:56:59ParaJackson also added .has(...) methods at one point for solving this particular problem. And find*() methods for similar convenience.
16:57:10whaleythough tbh, java was *wayyyy* behind the times by not including json processing of any kind in the standard api
16:57:18ParaAnd these are all indeed in databind, which I totally agree with you, the API is very low friction to use these days.
16:58:08ParaIt feels a bit that JEP 540 is being modeled by the reference implementation org.json which is...not that great ergonomics wise.
16:59:06nimajeif obj is parsed from {"key": null} then obj.get("key") would give you a JsonNull value, if "key" doesn't exist in obj it would throw JsonValueException
16:59:38ParaExceptions for flow control ;_;
17:00:26nimaje.tryGet(…) would give you an Optional instead
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17:06:52nimajehm, that API seems to be missing BigInteger/BigDecimal support
17:07:43whaleyeww
17:08:00ParaWhich is kinda odd as technically that's the only type they should support and coerce from that.
17:08:55whaleyhttps://cr.openjdk.org/~naoto/json/javadoc/api/jdk.incubator.json/jdk/incubator/json/JsonNumber.html
17:08:55javabotwhaley's title: "JsonNumber (Java SE 28 & JDK 28 [ad-hoc build])"
17:08:56nevetJsonNumber (Java SE 28 & JDK 28 [ad-hoc build])
17:09:28whaleythat toString() is icky
17:12:37nimajeok, it handles numbers correctly, but doesn't exposes them nicely
17:12:59ParaMaybe that's behind Oracle+ subscription.
17:18:52dreamrealI hate that JEP so much
17:18:57dreamrealhave we learned so little
17:21:13nimajehm, is the only good part of that JEP, that it doesn't try to use javas null for a json null value?
17:21:53* dreamreal hits the "support trailing commas" bits and decides NO on the JEP. I have no vote, but that single paragraph would be enough, and combined with.. uh... all the other paragraphs...
17:22:01ParaThis is like trying to express zero in Roman numerals...
17:24:09dreamreal"This paragraph, along with all of the other paragraphs, convinces me that I would be compelled to happily, nay, ecstatically and emphatically, kick this idiotic effing JEP into the sun. We could, of course, remove that paragraph and its asinine assumptions and restrictions, but that would leave the others. Still sun-bound, in my opinion. Geez, people. Sincerely, me."
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